Jeff and Alex discuss some of the most overlooked aspects of marketing. Jeff had over a decade of experience in digital marketing and this helps him identify brands' why what, and how. Setting himself up as the perfect person to help a brand achieve its goals.
Episode Show Notes
Alex Meade and Jeff Lerner focus on branding, personas, messaging, and funnels - and how they make the rest of your marketing better. Jeff has worked in marketing for over 20 years and has worked for companies such as Cricket Wireless, Google, and a few more impressive companies. Listen to this episode to hear what the most overlooked aspects of marketing are.
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Alex Meade, Beacons Point, VP of Sales & Marketing
Alex is the VP of Sales & Marketing at Beacons Point, a leader of HubSpot User Groups, the host of the B2B Growth Marketer Podcast, and a collector of Kurt Vonnegut books and San Diego craft beer.
Jeff Lerner, Founder, and CEO, Misnomer LLC
Jeff Lerner is a marketing executive, author, and public speaker. His career began at Google in the early 2000s and has included stops at Cricket Wireless, FTD, AT&T, industry-leading digital publishers, and independent marketing agencies.
Highlights
00:14 Introductions
03:00 Jeff on working at Google
04:35 What's your mission statement?
05:35 Jeff's favorite analogy
07:10 Create your mission statement
08:29 Simon Sinek, why?
09:17 What is the foundation of marketing?
10:22 Develop your buyer personas
13:18 The importance of automation
13:40 The disconnect between marketing and sales
17:13 Invest in a strategy
24:36 Advice to marketing managers
28:00 How Flamin Hot Cheetos were invented
28:48 Find someone who is willing to work with you
29:47 How Barak Obama gets perspective from his junior staff
Transcript
Alex Meade 0:14
Welcome to the b2b growth Marketer Podcast. I'm your host Alex Mead. And today we are sitting with Jeff Lerner. He is the CEO of misnomer marketing. Jeff has, what do you say 21 plus years 20 plus years of marketing experience. Everything from, you know, consumer to tech, and now is a now is more of a marketing consultant and strategist. So Jeff, welcome to the show.
Jeff Lerner 0:39
Thank you, Alex. Good to be here.
Alex Meade 0:41
So, Jeff, give us maybe your give us your 32nd elevator pitch like Why Why should we listen to you about marketing today?
Jeff Lerner 0:51
I mean, man, I wish I had a really good answer for that. But, you know, I've, you know, one of the things I love about my career my experiences is that I've worked both at at, you know, client side, and you know, marketing at Cricket Wireless AT and T you know, kind of big brands, I worked publisher side at Google back in the days when Google was just AdWords, before Gmail even even existed. And I've worked at agency side as well. And so, you know, what I bring to the table? And what kind of makes my experience somewhat unique is that, like, I touch marketing, from all different aspects, understanding everything from why to clients, hire agencies, how to agencies make best decisions, and why publishers do what they do to try to generate, you know, more ad revenue. So it's kind of a really holistic view of of the marketing world.
Alex Meade 1:43
Yeah, that's something that's really interesting. I feel, I feel like there's like an age of marketer, where you have experience in so many different things. And below that age of marketer, every I mean, you tell me if I'm wrong, I mean, you've worked in some, some bigger companies. But marketing is very specialized. So you're really good at content. But you don't necessarily learn about the platter, like the technology side of things. Or you know, you're really good at HubSpot, but you don't know anything about SEO. And I feel like marketing is gotten very specialized. I mean, like, I think that's maybe why someone like you is so valuable to talk to you.
Jeff Lerner 2:24
Yeah, you know, it's it's, you know, you know, when I started early in my career, I was specialized in, in paid search, because at Google, that's all we had. And that's what why I left Google, you know, I was, you know, back in the day, you know, everybody was lining up to try to get a job there. You know, we were getting 20,000 applications a day. And I was the one that said, Okay, I've had enough, I'm going to leave. And it was because of that I didn't want my career to be just about one thing. And that's something that I take with me now, whenever I'm building teams and working with people, and whether it's in organizations that I'm a part of, or even on the side where I have, you know, kind of my own mentor mentee relationships, I want to help marketers, not just excel at one particular aspect, but to think about bigger picture to think more strategy rather than execution. And so you're right, like, we need more of those individuals, because at some point in time, you know, they're going to probably be a little bit bored with doing the same email marketing over and over again, and you want them to not just have experience and skills to take them to the next level. But you want them to be thinking about that all the time of what do they want to learn?
Alex Meade 3:46
Yeah, that's well said. So that, Okay, that brings us to the topic of today. And I think we are both on the strategy side, and I come from a little bit of this world. But I don't, I'm curious to know, your experience you've had, you've had quite a bit and now, you know, working with with companies, we're going to talk about the most overlooked aspect of marketing. And so, you know, in your eyes, what is the most overlooked thing in marketing? What are people forgetting about?
Jeff Lerner 4:12
Yeah, it's a, you know, I've had this conversation with a lot of different companies, you know, as I built up my own business, kind of serving as a fractional CMO, you know, everyone likes to talk about the ads, they, you know, you like to talk about what's visible to people, you talk about what emails are going to be sent out, and I'm not discounting the importance of all of those things. But when I turn around and ask some of these founders and executives and say, Hey, what's your mission statement? You know, what's the vision of the company? If you had to describe your organization in three or five words or less, how would you do it? That's where you get a lot of kind of blank looks, you know, and you know, I love this Question When I, when I talk to people, I said, Look, if you're if I can convince you somehow to give me I don't know, whatever, it's $10 million to run a Superbowl ad. And I have 15 seconds not to sell a product, but just to explain who we are as a company, what would you want me to get across in those 15 seconds? And that question tends to hold a lot of weight because people realize, wait a second, okay, now, I'm putting a lot of money against this. And I don't know the answer to it. And so, you know, it's kind of I equate all of this my favorite analogy, and people who know me know that I love analogies, and I'm also really bad at them. But my favorite analogy is the idea of building a house. You know, people will walk to you walk over to your house, they'll come visit, and they'll be like, Wow, you built a beautiful kitchen, your, you know, your rooms look nice. I love what you've done here. Like everyone talks about the things they can visibly see. But what nobody ever does is walk into your house and be like, Man, you have a really good foundation. You know, your concrete slab is the sexiest concrete slab we've ever seen. Like, no one does that. And but that's what this overlooked part of marketing is it's the foundation, if you don't have that foundation in place, everything else you're building. While it may look good, it probably doesn't have the structure to stand the test of time.
Alex Meade 6:29
Yeah, yeah, I think that question about the 15. Second spot, the first thing that probably comes to most founders, CEOs, you know, like, you know, the executive leadership team is services, product features, you know, why they're good. And that's not really what the foundation is. And we had a, you know, we had a, I got that I got this asked one time, and they said, Oh, can you can you write our vision statement for us? I was like, Well, I'm just a marketing guy. I'm just you're just you're marketing to do good content, like, that comes from the top that doesn't that come from like, you know, select group of leaders that need to decide that? Where's the company going? And it kind of, you know, it's always interesting to me that large companies haven't really gone through an exercise to find a mission and a vision. And it's not it or that it's never hasn't been updated since the company was founded. envisions eyeline need to be continually updated. Because things change companies change missions. Yeah. Where to be like, where you're going and how you're doing it changes.
Jeff Lerner 7:38
You know, there's a massive difference between what an organization does and why they do it, or why they, you know, built the organization, or how they do something, you know, like, so, again, people are always in love to talk about the what, oh, you mean, you can meet someone on the street? What do you do? We know, everyone wants to know, what is your job? You know? And so, companies want to answer that in the same way, you know, Oh, you want to you want me to tell you about my company? Here's what we do. We offer a product that does X, Y, and Z. And that may be fantastic. But why do you offer that product? What made you think about creating something like that? What is the unmet need that you're going after? And why would you build this? What are you hoping that it does besides just make you rich? Like, what is it that you hope that this product or service does to improve an industry or a process? And so we need to get away from the what you do and get really back into the why we do it?
Alex Meade 8:45
Yeah, it's the it's the Simon Sinek, you know, the the why, and doing his doing his chart that I think, you know, got really popular, and I still it's still even through that. I don't understand how some companies just haven't spent the time to go through that process. So I want to ask you this one. Next time I go to a friend's house, I am going to say wow, what a great foundation that you have. Unless it's not looking too good, then I'm really want to get that checked out. But what is in your foundation? So if it digital paid ads is the kitchen, what is the foundation? What are we? What are what do we need to build a house?
Jeff Lerner 9:23
Yeah. So on top of what we were just talking about in terms of, you know, your mission and your vision and kind of what is, you know, at the core of the company, it's also about the personas, the development of, you know, the ICPs and really understanding Okay, well, who do we want to bring this to? You know, I again, I've talked to companies and founders who are like, well, I want to bring this to anybody who wants to buy it. And that is probably the most frustrating statement that I hear from someone because it speaks volumes about how unprepared they are to go to Mars. Target, persona development, creating buying cycles and phases and understanding every aspect of who should their target audience be? Why is that audience? You know, important? How do you speak to them? Again, going back to content creation, which I know is one of your areas of strength, you know, you can't put out content that talks to everyone, you need to put out content that speaks to your personas, well, you can't do that if you don't know who your personas are. So there's a lot of that that goes into this. And so again, nobody wants to talk about it. They want to go to the website and say, Look at all this great content we have well, but before you invest time and energy into writing that you better know, who do I want to read this? And what do I hope they get from it?
Alex Meade 10:55
Jeff, this might be the highest pinnacle of my podcasting career, that somebody else brought up buyer personas other than me, because I can't You can't stand like there's no box high enough to, you know, there's no mountain high enough to preach this. And you know, we are a Content Agency, we create a lot of content for clients. And before we even touch and create an article, it's like, Well, same question, well, who are your customers? And everybody's not an answer. And you know, who? Well, even if it is everybody, who is that every buddy who really is the everybody, and we try to, you know, figure out who that answer is you like you've set up perfectly, you can't create content, you're just kind of speaking to the void. And we use no client we're gonna start working with here. And their biggest problem that they say is they just create content, like comes to mind? Oh, yeah, was, Let's Get Article. This is this is a trend, we should talk about that. And it's never to somebody, and it's never, there's never a reason for it. And so I think, you know, okay, okay, we got, we got brand messaging, like we get your witness, sorry about brands, we got your mission, your vision, we've got personas, what else is in our foundation here?
Jeff Lerner 12:08
Process? Again, one of the biggest challenges that I see is you get these massive gaps between what a marketing team is doing versus what a sales team is doing. What happens when marketing creates a lead, what happens when an existing customer becomes more of an advocate and, you know, grow these things? And I've talked to heads of sales teams and say, Hey, okay, well, this is what just happened, a user did this behavior, which we wanted them to do. Did you follow up? And there's no, we haven't gotten to that yet? Well, urgency is probably the most important factor when it comes to, you know, following up with a prospect or a lead. And so again, this is one of those, if you haven't built a foundation, if an organization has not dedicated time, effort, energy cost into creating a process, then again, you're having this disjointed, you know, marketing programs that are not going to yield the results that you need. And, you know, yes, there's some great technology. And, you know, we can talk about HubSpot, and some of these other things and, you know, that allow for more automation, which is so important to, you know, the immediacy and timeliness of some of these things. But, again, I'm experiencing it, you know, all the time is the disconnect between organizations, or between groups within an organization. And so, things slip through the cracks, and these are massive cracks. And so leads don't get called and followed up on there's no, you know, there's no segmentation of leads, there's no assigning them values, and, you know, knowing who to prioritize and why. And so again, it's not what you're going to see during the Superbowl commercial. But it's certainly if you spend that money and people go to your website and fill out a form. Well, you better have a process that says, Okay, what are we going to do with it next? Because if you don't, you're spending money that's going to go for nothing?
Alex Meade 14:19
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you kind of mentioned this, and this was my follow up question. So process is important. How important is your tech platforms, your tech stack to support that? Is that part of that process as well?
Jeff Lerner 14:34
It is, and, you know, it's, there are I mean, you've been there, you know, like there there are both the easy and inexpensive ways. I don't necessarily want to say easy, there are the inexpensive ways to manage a pipeline and to manage the process. And, you know, there's also some of the more expensive, you know, tech stack, you know, programs and, you know, you have your hub spots in Salesforce. is and you know, whatever it may be. But it is, you know, again, it's one of those things where it needs to be part of a marketing budget. You know, and this is a conversation I have all the time with founders when I say, you know, okay, I need a marketing budget, and they're like, oh, for advertising. And I'm like, before, before I spend any money before I because, again, there's no point in me spending 10 grand on, you know, any sort of advertising. If we don't know what we're going to do when somebody takes the behavior does the, you know, takes the action we want them to. So marketing tech stack, like it needs to be part of that marketing budget, it needs to be included. And it needs to be a source of investment.
Alex Meade 15:44
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I'm a big fan of HubSpot. But I know it's not the right fit for every company out there. So whatever it is, I feel like that is a very important piece of the process, you need something to build a process on other than a Google sheet where it's not sustainable. Yes. Okay. Agreed. mission vision, personas process. What else I like this, I feel like we're on a, like a Bob Vila show are some building houses.
Jeff Lerner 16:15
You know, I think the other part and this is, you know, totally the self, grand Ising, you know, aspect of it, but it's, it's marketing strategy. You know, there are and I've walked into, and kind of this is, this is how I make my money making my earn my living now is, is walking into companies who are like, Oh, we have a marketing manager, who's, you know, responsible for XY and Z. And, you know, where we have a coordinator, or we have a social media person, or, you know, we even have an agency that we've used, and I said, Great, well, who's giving direction to that agency? Who's giving direction to the marketing manager? You know, are they bringing strategy to the table? And nine times out of 10? The answer is no. Like, we're, we're just were purely an executional. mindset. Yeah. And that's where, again, we talk about investment, but like, investing in strategy is so important, because you need to have cohesive messaging, you need to have a, the reason we're doing X is because we're also doing y and without x and y, we will never get to Z. And that's what, you know, again, like I said, this is the, you know, part where I get to tell my story of what I do, but, but this is what, you know, I've built now is, you know, this role of fractional CMO, you know, I'm not looking for that full time, you know, 40 hours a week, you know, type of role because most organizations don't need that, or at least early stage or growing organizations don't. But they certainly do need marketing strategy. And so it's an investment, it's part of that core. But it brings all of those other elements together the how do we define our mission and vision? How do we build personas and, you know, buyer journeys and lifecycle stages and all of that, like, I would not expect unless they have a marketing background, a CEO or a founder to want to undertake that process. It's just not their skill set the same way, I would never want to go be a CFO somewhere, not my skill set. And so that's why marketing strategy is so important and needs to be a part of that foundation that you may not see externally, but internally, is without a doubt it replaced.
Alex Meade 18:46
Yeah. And I think strategy is one of those words that gets thrown around a lot of you know that, oh, yeah, we've got a marketing strategy. We go to these conferences, and or, oh, yeah, we send out emails, they have an email marketing strategy. And even if they have built a strategy, this is who we're targeting, this is what we're going to try to say this is how we're going to reach them. That gets lost over time. If someone's not there to say, How's it going? Let's update it, Let's revise let's either create a new one or like that, I think that company you described marketing manager. You know, we try to make it clear, you are hiring us, we can provide content strategy, but we are not directing your overall marketing strategy. We help like that segment of it. But you're right, someone has to dictate to tell an agency what to do otherwise, they're just going to do what they're going to do. And so it's really interesting. I think that element of strategy gets used a lot. And there's a lot of people saying you need a strategy and your strategy, but I don't know if everybody fully understands like, what does that actually mean? And it's not a set it and forget it type thing.
Jeff Lerner 19:55
Yeah. And, you know, it's, again, going back to what we first talked about the specialized role. roles in marketing, I would not expect a an email marketing specialist or an email marketing manager who has three to five years of experience to be thinking about, Okay, well, what is the strategy of our CRM team? What is the strategy of our content team? How are they intertwined with social and email? I mean, that's just not their area of strength or expertise or where they are in their career. And so, you know, like, any good organization, like you need that, you know, the quarterback, if you will, to say, hey, look, you know, what, we're, there's a reason why you're all going to, you know, run these routes and do these things. And, you know, and it's because it all goes back to the strategy that's being developed, rather than siloed, you know, kind of executional strategy, which is very different.
Alex Meade 20:51
Yeah, would you so I kind of thought so think of the elements that you talked about first? Well, your your mission and your vision. To me, that's like a corporate brand building exercise. And when people say the rebranding, you know, I hope to think that's what they mean, is understanding that information along with the visual personas, you know, process, a lot of that work to me leads up to the strategy. And like, all of those things are needed before you can even create a strategy. Because if it's like, hey, go create a strategy. I don't know who my customer is. We just sell this because we make money off of it. I don't know, we help every we help everyone. It's hard to create a strategy that's going to work. And so for me, those are, you know, those are on our checkboxes in a sales process as an agency. Oh, do you have this? Do you have that? No, okay, we got to build that, oh, you have that we need to verify it. Before we can really create anything because you can, you can create the best strategy that will never work because you're targeting the wrong person.
Jeff Lerner 21:57
Yep. It's your, you know, dead accurate. You know, one, the first thing I do with any engagement, you know, or the most of the engagements that I have, you know, with my with my company is go in and start with, okay, we're going to do all the behind the scenes work, we're going to start with our mission and our vision, we're going to talk about your colors, we're going to talk about your logo, I mean, they're even shocked the number of times you talk to someone say hey, what made you choose these colors, as part of your color palette, and a CEO will be like, I really liked that color. And I'm like that, that can't be the reason like I get it. But like, it can't be the reason you know, and I always go back and like look at every major US financial institution. You know, in the United States, like your Chase, your Bank of America, your like, almost all of them have have that blue, there's reason blue means something same with airlines, like, you know, they all have an element of blue. And so color means something. And so there's a lot of education, where at the end of it, the outcome is this document that says, Okay, here's who we are, what we're all about our mission, our vision, our colors, our company description, who let's talk about persona development, our buying cycle, our differentiator in the marketplace, you know, who are our competitors, let's do a SWOT analysis, like there's a lot that goes into this. So that to your point, then we can start thinking, Okay, now, how do we mark it? Basically, with all the I mean, again, it's your playbook now that I have this playbook. Now, how do I bring this to the public? We've identified that, you know, Joe, who is a 43 year old man in a urban environment, you know, who makes X, Y, and Z money? Who loves tech, whatever it may be. That's our core core audience. Okay, great. Well, how do we go and find more jokes? How do we create content that Joe will want to read? Rather than saying, let's create all this stuff and hope that Joe reads it or engages with it? So it's, it's all of that, you know, behind the scenes work that is so often overlooked?
Alex Meade 24:09
Yeah, yeah. Okay, I want to, I want to change gears a little bit. So knowing what we consider the foundation, what some of the work that needs to be done, you've kind of described like this market, this like marketing manager who may or may not have some strategy work, I want to, you know, a lot of people in the show, are those marketing managers, or maybe they want to be director and they want to be CMO, you know, look, but they're, they're kind of in that career path. And so you know, think about if you were what advice would you give a new marketing hire and an organization like this, maybe one to two marketing on the team, you know, maybe a graphic designer and they're coming coming in as like a manager. What would be your kind of like, advice for 3060 90 day plan for that, like, what would you if you could phrase it that or not, but It's how do you want to figure out? How do you what advice? Would you tell them? If they want to do this?
Jeff Lerner 25:05
If they want to grow into a more career more like they want,
Alex Meade 25:09
They want to they know, they know they need these things? How do they go about? Like, what's the exact? What's the order? What would you tell them of, hey, if you've, if you've just gotten into a new company, and you need to build a foundation? Here's some things to do.
Jeff Lerner 25:24
Yeah, I mean, first, one of the things I often think about is, look at an organizational structure and see, where do the where's the marketing team fit. And what I also mean by that is, if on the sales side, you have a VP of sales, and then two directors of sales, and then you know, sales reps and other managers, you know, then you have over, you know, on a finance side of VP of Finance and some other people, and on the marketing side, you go from, like the CEO to like a marketing manager, or they're, like, that tells you a lot. So, the first question for me when you know, as always, when I look at an organization or evaluate a marketing organization is what is what does that organization look like? Who is leading the strategy for the development of a holistic marketing program? If the answer is, well, we don't have someone that's doing that, well, then a that that's a pretty obvious first hire or next hire. But for anybody who joins an organization, you know, I think what you're asking is, you know, how do they navigate through some of this and grow their careers and think about the strategy side of things to find someone that you, you know, and people will say that people don't quit jobs, they click Quit managers. It's the same on the flip side, people want to work for certain people, and it's the people who want to help them in their careers. I've taken content writers who have, you know, one or two years of experience, and taught them some of the things that I've learned over my career. And they went from a content writer to a digital marketing specialist, learning, social and email and ad creation and other those in some of those other skills. Because that helped them in their development, because they want it to be thinking again, bigger picture, and strategic. And so it's always asking those right questions. And as a marketing leader, it's our responsibility to teach people bring them into the equation, you know, I'm my favorite marketing story of all time is the Flaming Hot Cheetos story, which is, you know, literally Flaming Hot Cheetos came to be because one of an executive found a janitor, who was eating Cheetos, pouring hot sauce on them, and was like, What are you doing? And he was like, I like it spicy. Like, this is, you know, and Flaming Hot Cheetos came to be and now there's flaming hot, literally everything. Because, you know, while no executive in the room thought of what if we make it spicy. The janitor did, he liked it. And someone picked up on it had solid, he had this idea. And it became a huge success. And so for every one on a marketing team, it's the same thing. I am, but one person who has my 20 plus years of experience, that doesn't make me better or smarter or more in tune with what customers may want with what you know. And so expand, look to each other, you know, bring people into the conversation, build the strategy that way, because I'm telling you now, like, if somebody comes to me wants to talk about tick tock, I have no idea what to do. Like, yeah, you know, so like, it's all about, you know, as early in your career individuals, find someone who's willing to teach you and work with you. And as marketing leaders who are building strategy, bring others into the equation help shape their careers, while also asking them for their opinions, because that's where some of the best ideas are gonna come from.
Alex Meade 29:12
Yeah. I love that story. The Flaming hearts. I love it. I mean, I mean, those I have a feeling those stories exist in almost all major corporations.
Jeff Lerner 29:23
Big companies, good ones. Yeah,
Alex Meade 29:25
Yeah. And I love that. And so HubSpot just had their inbound conference last week. And the keynote speaker was Barack Obama. So it was very highly attended, as you can imagine. And he he told this story of he was in I don't know if he was like in the Situation Room or the Oval Office, but he's telling the stories that were he was talking about how he makes decisions. Now is one of the questions like its founders did make decisions, how do you make decisions and tough decisions, you know, World Politics and all these things. And he said he, you know, he had his Joint Chiefs, he had cabinet members, and any kind of asking and everybody's kind of given them thing. And then he said, and then he just asked on the junior staffers behind them. And because he's like, I know, they're the ones that wrote these documents, these briefings, they're the ones that know it better. And, and he said, you know, the idea was opening up the idea of perspective. And just because somebody who has 25 years of experience, they're not the only voice you should have in that in that conversation. And that was kind of what he was trying to say, is that you doesn't matter if it's the janitor or obviously not gonna be the janitor, in every single pitch meeting, you have to figure out what's the and say, but ideas come from everywhere, and you need to be open to hearing them.
Jeff Lerner 30:37
And my stance is, you know, and I say this to all my teams and sales, or because it doesn't matter is, you know, what my job is my job is to ask all of you for your ideas. I don't care how long you've been with the company, I don't care how many years of experience you have, I don't care what your job title is. If you're on the marketing team, not on the marketing team, it doesn't matter. My job is to hear all of the ideas and weigh what I think is the best from a marketing perspective and then make the decision, you know, and we can debate them and we can have conversations, but ultimately, there needs to be one decision maker. And so when we talk about marketing, like that decision, you know, is mine to make. But I've made that decision having received input from anybody and everybody who's willing to give it. So this way I can make the most informed decision possible. So yeah, I'm the same as Barack Obama, obviously.
Alex Meade 31:31
I mean, same level, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right, Jeff, this has been fantastic. I think we could probably talk about this for another hour. But to save, save some content for future episodes or other other articles, but I want to thank you for joining. Quick, quickly, I guess, where can people find you? How should they reach out? Yeah, where can we find you?
Jeff Lerner 31:53
Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn, they certainly can go to my website, which is Misnomer.co. I'm not rich enough to own the.com just yet, so it's misnomer.co. Or they can, they can just send me an email to jeff@misnomer.co. And I'm happy to respond.
Alex Meade 32:10
Great. And we'll also put that in the show notes on the episode. So yeah, any any parting words that you have?
Jeff Lerner 32:19
Invest in the foundation, as both a homeowner and a marketer invest in the foundation, because when the foundation crumbles, it doesn't matter how big and beautiful everything above it may look, it will all come crashing down. So invest in the foundation.
Alex Meade 32:37
I think that's how we're gonna end it. Thank you, Jeff, so much for joining us.
Jeff Lerner 32:41
Thank you, Alex.
Alex Meade 32:45
Thanks for listening to the b2b growth Marketer Podcast. Again, my name is Alex and we really do appreciate you listening. You keep us going, keep us interested, keep us looking to bring in new audience members, new guest interviews, new formats to test out, you know, because this is all about making, making us all better as marketers, and for us. This is also experimentation, try new things. Try having fun, interview new guests, really to bring more information to you. So we really do appreciate it. To learn more, you can check us out at beacons point.com. You can find us on LinkedIn. Follow the podcast on Apple Spotify and wherever you get podcasts. Thank you.
